Am i blacklisted for good!

Newbie Joined: Mar 29, 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Manchester

Does anybody agree with the Criminality checks from the SIA!
I have worked in the Security Industry for nearly 5 years now (With the same company), i have had 3 major promotions since doing so, I have recently had a spell of sickness which lead to 2 weeks off from work.
As i am classed as Non-Front line, but not Admin, i have to obtain an SIA Licence, (Arrrgh).
I have a little black mark on my Criminal record that my employer knows about, as it happened while under their employment.
Due to a bit of a disagreement with one of the managers he is being a bit of a bum, but to cut a long story short, i have been informed that i will eventually be made redundant because i cannot obtain a Licence (approx 4 weeks time)
I have completed an online criminality check with the SIA website, which proved useless
Anybody have any info on this one 8O
I am still on the sick 4 weeks later, i think ill wait and see!

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:25 am

command wrote:

Does anybody agree with the Criminality checks from the SIA!
II have completed an online criminality check with the SIA website, which proved useless!

Well I think most people, including myself think the criminality checks are essential if the industry is to change it's image. Employers are supposed to undertake criminality checks anyway but because so many are not doing so or employing individuals with a dubious background, the Government has made CRB checks a requirement of licencing.

I am not sure what you mean by "an online criminality check with the SIA website proved useless". First, I was not aware they had one so I am going to check that out in a moment but are you saying the results of the check confirmed you would not get a licence or are you saying the result was so vague that you could not draw a conclusion as to whether you would get a licence or not??

Having a crminal record does not automatically preclude you from holding a licence, it depends on the nature of the offence and how long ago the offence took place.

Newbie Joined: Mar 29, 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Manchester

I agree with you totally, We don't really want criminals working for us undetected, but the fact that the BSIA criteria for a 10 year checkable work history seems to be adequate for the detection of convictions and indeed if a potential employee has served a sentence in the past, after 10 years the conviction is spent and does not have to be declared.
The nature of my record is quite complex in that it sounds serious! Nevertheless, if it was the background of the case that is looked at, not the actual wording of the conviction.
I am all for what you say, but a little mistake should not say that I cannot work in a job to a senior position that has taken me 5 years to accomplish.
If the SIA actually sat down and thought about this and the impact it has on peoples lives, they could have come up with a solution to categorise certain convictions, and yes if a crime was serious enough to decline a licence, then fair enough, but all details should be taken into account first.
I hope you found the criminality indicator useful, but I have sat for nearly 4 hours and worked my way through every minor conviction possible to try and obtain a licence, to no avail.
My advice to the SIA is to let the employer have the final say on if he/she should be allowed a licence, I mean it all comes down to the insurers of the Security company on pay outs for convicted employee’s if claims are made towards the company.
My final thought is that peoples lives are at stake here, and if I were to ask you to put yourself in my position (pardon the pun) how would you feel.
Mark! :?

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:43 pm

I sympathise with your plight, I really do.
I have had a play with the online assessment and apart from serious crimes, the result is always the same - unlikely to obtain a licence but we don't know for sure.

Just to clarify a small point - you mentioned the vetting requirement laid down by the BSIA, the vetting criteria is actually laid down by the British Standards Institute as the vetting criteria is actually a British Standard, the BSIA simply request member organisation adhere to that particular standard.

The point you make regarding the employer having the final says on who gets a licence and who doesnt in the instance that an individual has some minor conviction would never work, for th simple reason that some employers have been turning a blind eye to criminal convictions in the past and this is part of the reason the industry is in such a mess to start with. I know that does not help your particular case but unfortunateyl, it is one of those sad facts of life that come back to haunt us.

I would strongly suggest you you write directly to the SIA, explain your case fully to them and if possible include some affidavits or other statements from people who can vouch for your conduct over the last 5 years or however long it has been since your 'problem' occured. At least this way, they might look at your case, without you having to risk losing money for the licence or training etc. And you never know, they might actually look upon it the same way you do, as a never to be repeated blemish on your otherwise good record.

Newbie Joined: Mar 29, 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Manchester

Again thanks for your comments on this matter, I have taken on board everything you have said, it’s just annoying that I have known about the SIA’s proposed plans for quite a while, but never actually thought they would pull it off (so to speak), come to think of it, i have always been told that 'it would be sorted' by my employer.
Anyway, I will just keep battling on and see what develops; you never know I might start my own firm, (Never in a month of Sundays).

One more thing before I go, do you know if there is an appeal process for declined licenses, as a Director of the company came to see me last week “who incidentally is trying to find an alternative role within the company” told me there was, but as you said paying nearly £300 just to be told no!
I know you are not a legal buff, but how would you go about letting an employee “go” who cannot obtain a licence, at present, can it be forecast, or when the licence is returned, I think the deadline is March 06, I don’t think it has even been added to employment law as yet.
My employer’s excuse at the moment is Redundancy; I can see this is going to be tricky.

Fair well!

Forum Addict Joined: Apr 28, 2004 Posts: 122

get someone to change your job description or something maybe.

if your employer is willing then get them to give you a position that does not require licensing.

just an idea...

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:52 am

Now we are entering a different arena.
It is possible that Redundancy might cover it but the employer would have to tread very carefully. The employer would need to dismiss everybody with the same job title, get them to re-apply for their old job back but under a different title, pay structure and other changes so the employer could prove it was in effect, a different job - a difficult thing to do.
Having said that, Securiplan pulled it off last year when it made all its mobile Inspectors redundant and then took most of them back on with a new title, specific job description and a small pay rise.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:05 am

Hi All,
Sorry to be a pain but can you give me the link so I can see what it says about me, I have looked but can't find it on the site.
For this I would be very greafull as I am thinking about going back on the front line (bord with my new job & want to get back to doing what I enjoy most Wink

).

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:25 pm

http://www.the-sia.org.uk/home/licensing/cvit/wizard/cri_intro.htm

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:16 pm

Thanks John for the link.
My black mark from the past ia over 15yrs ago & the check said that I will be alright.

Rising Star Joined: Apr 27, 2005 Posts: 56

command wrote:

I know you are not a legal buff, but how would you go about letting an employee “go” who cannot obtain a licence, at present, can it be forecast, or when the licence is returned, I think the deadline is March 06, I don’t think it has even been added to employment law as yet.
My employer’s excuse at the moment is Redundancy; I can see this is going to be tricky.

Fair well!

Hello Command,

I'll try to put a little light on this for you if I am able.

At present the SIA seem to have provided a "get out clause" for the employers in so much as if a license is not likely to be issued due to "a blemish" on the employee's history, then the reason for termintaion can be put down to unlicensable.

I know it a hard line to take and I empathise with all those in front line positions where licensing is compulsory, but the fact remains that the SIA have overall control of the acceptance and declining of license applications and unfortunately, I do not belive they would bend the rules for "Joe Bloggs" due to the sheer number of applications they need to trawl through.

Like I said, I really empathise with your situation and I hope everything works out positively for you.

Please keep us posted though on any progress you make. Good Luck!!

Newbie Joined: Mar 29, 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Manchester

Thanks for the reply, I am currently on sick leave, and have been for the last 9 weeks, before i did so, a manager and i had a bit of a disageement, since then it has all become a two way slanging match.
Ok, First of all while on sick leave i was sent an application for an Sia licence (this i can tell was designed by our office receptionist, so no legalities here), they know full well i cannot get one (as mentioned in previous post's), i dont reply, and two weeks later they send me a reminder, this time with a bit of punch in the text with threats to terminate my OWN employment (Lol), this is what they were looking for.
So with this i thought i would get them back, i sent the original pre-designed form back to them in the freepost they sent me, but with a twist.
In the space at the bottom of the scrappy M.S Word doc, i entered in pencil a special little box with the heading something like this......

I do not wish for {company name} to act on my behalf for an Sia licence, as i will be applying for it myself, which they carelessly left out, along with the other 200+employees
Of course i checked with the Sia first, as i know the new company who have taken us over want rid of some key members of staff including me which will save them a few quid in redundancy etc etc, so for the moment the SIA at the moment is a god send to use this kind of enforcement.
But all this aside, i must admit i totally agree with it, it will put Security on to a better class of employment, and stop the stigma attached to it as being the 'Last resort' of employment.
But unfortunatly, some of us who have made mistakes in the past have now got to move on, or as i see it, Pushed out, which will save some companies ££££££££ in tribunal cases or such.

Mark

Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:15 am

If you are on sick leave and are providing sicknotes from your Doctor, unless it is to determine when you might be fit to return to work, your employer should not even be contacting you.

Rising Star Joined: Apr 27, 2005 Posts: 56

Absolutely,

I would drop ACAS (link) a line and ask if your employers are breaking employment law by contacting you whilst on sickness leave.

Site Admin Joined: May 07, 2003 Posts: 24 Location: Wigan

An employer can quite legally dismiss an unlicensable person on the grounds of SOSR. There are 5 legal ways to dismiss a person from their employment and SOSR is the one which will be used in this case.
(SOSR = Some Other Substantial Reason).
This would be the same with a lorry driver who lost his driving license. It is a legal requirement to have a license and if you don't hold such, you cannot do the job.
The company I work for have terminated the employment of 6 officers in this branch alone for not submitting their forms to the SIA in time. They were all given ample opportunity, the financial argument doesn't hold water as the company is paying out for the licence, it was simply a matter of 'couldn't be bothered'. They were dismissed on the SOSR clause.

As to the 'minor blemish', the SIA has an appeals process which will take into account statements from parties concerned and look into the background and circumstances of the conviction.

An employer can contact the employee in this way as it affects their continued employment with the company and it is to comply with a requirement as laid down by the law-makers of this country.