Safe glass???

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:30 pm

Thanks to everyone who has 'signed' so far, keep the names coming.

I seem to recall from way back that there was a range of glassware developed specifically for use within the licensed trade that shattered into a million pieces when smashed. Somewhat similar to a car windscreen sort of thing.
Basically, it wasn't possible to smash the glass and leave a pointed shard.

I know it was manufactured on a trial basis but I have no idea why it didn't catch on?
Maybe it was too expensive.

Anyone else remember this stuff?

Newbie Joined: Feb 01, 2005 Posts: 24 Location: London

I remember something along those lines but I can't remember from where.

Though if a few bottles were broken it would leave a pile of glass, surely this in itself would be a hazard?

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:29 pm

cm

Quote:

I remember something along those lines but I can't remember from where.

Though if a few bottles were broken it would leave a pile of glass, surely this in itself would be a hazard?

You're not wrong there matey.
I did a little digging on this topic and found the following report.

Quote:

BOTTLE BAN
1. BEDA
The Bar Entertainment and Dance Association (BEDA) is the professional body of the late night entertainment industry. The BEDA Committee represents all the major plc's within the late night leisure business as well as representatives from the sole proprietor/small business sector.
BEDA aims to represent all sectors of the industry and particularly encourages membership from small businesses. Formed in 1952, it now has over 1200 members from clubs, bars and discotheques throughout the United Kingdom. BEDA consults widely within the industry, so that it is aware of the current concerns of its members and is thus able to speak as a trade association representing the views of the industry as a whole.
BEDA also maintains communication with its members through an association with NIGHT magazine, a monthly trade magazine with a circulation of 12,300. This provides an additional opportunity for consultation with members and others who are interested in the objectives of BEDA.
BEDA is in favour of public debate upon the present licensing laws and welcomes reforms to the system provided that there is a proper balance between consumer choice on the one hand, and the maintenance of a safe environment for the public on the other.
The club and bar industry grew out of the old dance halls and has a long tradition of providing quality entertainment for the public. The industry has developed considerable experience in dealing with large numbers of, predominately young, people who have come to enjoy themselves at the end of a night out.
Nonetheless, it is recognised that the chances of public disorder increase at the end of an evening, particularly following consumption of alcohol and where other tensions exist, e.g. sexual rivalry. For this reason, the industry has raised its standards over recent years, and has been involved in local and national initiatives to reduce the likelihood of disorder. A national example of this commitment is BEDA's support for the development of a national registration scheme for door supervisors. The scheme is currently being finalised by the Security Industry Authority which itself came into being via the Private Security Industry Act 2001.
BEDA has also worked with the Home Office, Cabinet Office and DCMS to produce guidance for operators on issues such as drugs policy, noise at work and safer clubbing. BEDA has also encouraged local initiatives to improve safety inside and outside venues and is pleased that there are now so many schemes in existence. There is considerable evidence that these schemes reduce incidents of violence both in venues and in our town and city centres.
BEDA and its members are used to working in partnership with the police and local authorities to improve the safety of their customers and staff.
2. History of Bottle Ban Conditions
In 1993, Torbay Borough Council implemented a condition which required holders of Public Entertainment Licences who also held Section 77 Certificates to ensure that "all drinking glasses or vessels" should effectively be made of toughened glass. This was perceived to be a local issue and at this stage BEDA itself did not become involved; however one of its then members, Rank Leisure Ltd, appealed the imposition of the condition unsuccessfully to the Magistrates', and then to the Crown Court. The appeal was never pursued in the Crown Court, as Rank Leisure decided to abandon the appeal and accept the condition.
Subsequently the Devon and Cornwall police prepared a briefing paper, and as a result ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) circulated this to all chief constables in England and Wales commending it as an example of good practice. A number of police forces then wrote to their local licensing authorities. As a result BEDA members were asked to comment on the proposed condition which would effectively insist upon the use of toughened glass, and ban drinking from bottles.
Drinking from the bottle has become widespread throughout the leisure industry and it is clear that this practice is here to stay, rather than being a passing fad. BEDA members have adapted their venues, often at considerable expense, so as to be able to provide this produce as the customer requires it, namely in the bottle. It should be emphasised that BEDA members make more profit from the sale of draft beers and these adaptations were made as a response to customer demand.
The BEDA committee has also expressed concern that the use of the public entertainment licence condition only restricted the use of bottles as drinking vessels in premises that held a section 77 certificate. Other licensed premises would continue to respond to customer demand by permitting drinking from the bottle. BEDA's initial view was that there should be national legislation affecting all licensed premises if there was evidence that drinking from bottles in this way represented an increased risk to the public.
BEDA decided to carry out an in depth investigation, and appointed Poppleston Allen licensing solicitors for this purpose. The terms of reference were to investigate whether there was a significant risk to the consumer which would justify the imposition of a bottle ban. The solicitors contacted all the District and Borough Councils, Licensing Officers in England and Wales and produced three reports in 1995, 1996 and 1997. The survey showed that the vast majority of Councils were either not considering a bottle ban or had considered and rejected it. Only five had imposed a blanket bottle ban (of these one had no discotheques within its area) and a similar number had decided to impose bottle bans on individual premises for specific reasons.
Since those surveys were carried out the number of Councils imposing bottle bans has slightly reduced and BEDA has not seen the need to carry out further widespread research. As a result BEDA maintains its view that the imposition of the ban on bottles cannot be justified on the evidence available.
3. Drug Rape
Since these surveys were carried out there have been an increasing number of reports of drug-assisted sexual assaults. BEDA members are anxious to do their best to prevent drugs being introduced into victim's drinks in their premises. Women attending late night premises are an obvious target. The Drug Rape Trust was launched on 1 December 1999. Part of their published advice states "drinking from a bottle and keeping your thumb over the top is a good idea". When Councils initially imposed bottle bans this drug was not available and therefore did not form part of their deliberations. This new threat is clearly a very significant reason for not imposing a bottle ban or, where one exists, for removing it. It is much easier to introduce drugs to an open vessel than it is to a bottle.
4. Reasons for Drinking from the Bottle
There are many good reasons for drinking straight from the bottle, these include:
o Reduces the risk of drug-assisted sexual assault.
o Speed of service - reduces queuing time and therefore frustration
o Control - standing drinkers find it easier to control a bottle than a glass
o Spillage - the contents of a bottle are less likely to be spilled in a busy bar
o Public Order - fights can break out if one person's drink is spilled over another
o Rate of consumption - people are inclined to drink less when drinking from bottles
o Image
o Guarantee - customers know what they are getting if they see the bottle opened.
o Condition - the product will be chilled and fresh.
o Hygiene - nobody else has drunk from the bottle before them.
5. The Industry's Response
The Industry has responded to this customer-driven trend by producing new product lines and installing many thousand of pounds worth of bottle refrigerators. The level of investment in the design and layout of bars shows that the industry does not regard this trend as a passing fad. A whole generation of young people have emerged who have probably never drunk beer from anything other than a bottle. Drinking from the bottle takes place in most licensed premises and is increasingly common in older age groups. Estimates indicate that 90% of drinks sold in late night venues are consumed straight from the bottle.
6. Weapons
Many studies have shown that violence in licensed premises erupts spontaneously. A study carried out by Nottingham University has shown that the weapons can be ashtrays, bar stools, table legs, cigarettes, fire extinguishers, items of clothing, or bric-a-brac, and also examined the frequency of their use. This survey showed that items of furniture were used with the same degree of frequency as bottles. It is apparent from this that removing bottles from late night venues will not remove the problem.
When used as a weapon, a bottle is almost invariably intact and is not used as a sharp slashing or stabbing instrument. Door staff find it easier to disarm an individual wielding a bottle than a glass.
7. Availability of Bottles
Off Licences: Bottled drinks, whether alcoholic or non-alcoholic, are available from a wide variety of retailers. This has led to an increase in the number of persons drinking outside, and a consequential increase in the number of bottles left in the street. Operators notice this when potential customers in the queue outside their premises are observed to be drinking. Most BEDA members take steps to discourage this practice. All BEDA members discourage, and most forbid, the removal of bottles from their premises. If external drinking or litter appears to be a problem, then BEDA recommends that a condition should be imposed upon the Public Entertainment Licence prohibiting the removal of bottles from the venue.
On Licences: Bottles are available for immediate consumption in most on-licensed premises. Only a small proportion hold Public Entertainment Licences and still less hold Section 77 Certificates. A condition that only affects customers of licensed premises holding section 77 certificates is highly discriminatory. These are also the most heavily regulated on-licensed premises and have a reputation for providing a secure environment for their customers.
8. Regulation
BEDA member's premises are more heavily regulated than any other licensed premises. Their operation is governed by conditions that are imposed by local authorities and also by magistrates. Public Entertainment Licences have to be renewed at least once each year. There is an opportunity for all the statutory authorities to make observations on the desirability of renewing the licence.
The Public Entertainment Licence (Drugs Misuse) Act 1997 introduced a new power enabling Councils to revoke Public Entertainment Licences where there is a serious drugs problem at the premises. This revocation takes immediate effect and will, in almost every case, have the effect of immediately closing the licensed premises.
The Justices' Licence is renewable every three years, but an application can be made to revoke this at any other licensing sessions; these normally take place every month.
The Section 77 Certificate can be separately revoked on application by the police, on the grounds that the revocation is expedient by reason of the occurrence of disorderly conduct in the premises. That application can also be made at any licensing sessions, and revocation, at the present time will mean an immediate termination of the permitted hours at 11pm. This applies during any appeal period, and makes it impossible for the licensee to trade.
This is an appalling prospect for operators/owners of late night premises and will almost always result in staff being laid off.
The value of licensed premises is dependant upon the licences and certificates in force. It is worth noting that there is also a significant reduction in the value of premises where licences are in jeopardy. It is therefore in the interests of operators to ensure that their premises are conducted in an orderly and responsible manner. Operators are well aware of the consequences of violence, disorder, or other threats to public safety in their premises.
BEDA does not seek to defend poorly run premises. Where such premises exist, BEDA believes that the authorities should take all appropriate action to protect the public. The local authority itself has wide powers and can refuse to renew a licence, or renew it for a shorter period of time, to see if any problems are resolved. If problems are caused by misuse of bottles in one particular licensed premises, then BEDA sees no objection to a specific condition prohibiting the use of bottles as drinking vessels in that particular premises. This would not adversely affect other well-run premises within the same licensing district. Indeed it may have a beneficial effect, as better run premises may experience an increase in business from consumers who wish to continue drinking from the bottle as part of their evening's entertainment.
9. International Issues
BEDA has not found any evidence of any other country where it is unlawful for bottles to be handed over the bar. In some parts of Europe bottles can be purchased on unsupervised street corners from automatic vending machines.
In the U.S.A., state laws, concerned with public safety, cover all areas of entertainment. The one practice they will not prohibit is drinking straight from the bottle.
Bottles are 100% recyclable. Britain leads the way in Europe's recycling programme and is committed to achieving the European goal for 50% of all bottles to be produced from recycled materials by the year 2000.
10. Medical Research
BEDA has examined existing medical research and endeavoured to ascertain the extent of attacks with glassware in late night venues. Most of the statistics produced are capable of being challenged and are therefore deficient in detail. Perhaps the most significant of BEDA's findings is that no statistics exist that distinguish between assaults with glassware in late night venues and those that occur in other licensed premises. Most statistics are deficient in that they do not show the location of the assault at all. Many do not distinguish between accidental and deliberate injuries. Few published statistics show either the time that the injury occurs or whether it is of a domestic or non-domestic nature.
Some samples are large, but the statistics drawn from them relate to a small number of patients. One survey of adult victims of glass attacks involved five large urban accident and emergency departments in Bristol, Manchester, Sunderland, Birmingham and Edinburgh over two weekends. Of the 43 patients included in the study only 9 of those injured were assaulted with a bottle. This represents only 21% of all those who were injured by glass. This percentage has less significance than the fact that there were only 9 bottle assaults in the study taking place over 5 centres in two weekends. Considering the size of the cities that were covered by the survey, this seems to indicate a very minor problem, particularly when it could be proved that only 70% (roughly 6 patients) were said to have received their injury in or near a pub or late night venue.
A further survey was conducted in a south east London hospital amongst 425 patients being treated for injuries as a result of deliberate physical violence. Of those assaults involving sharp weapons, which includes knives, screwdrivers etc., twice as many occurred on the street as in licensed premises. Attacks with broken glass accounted for only 9% of the total incidents but no specific figure is given of the number of these that involved bottles. It should also be noted that while no specific figure was given for serious injury resulting from glass attack, it must be a small proportion, as 90% of all serious injuries resulted from assaults with knives.
A study by the University of Nottingham, which included incidents of violence at licensed premises, revealed that 32.9% of incidents involving glasses resulted in injury which required medical attention, whereas only 14.1% of incidents involving bottles required similar attention. This survey did not distinguish between annealed and toughened glassware. Whilst no weapon can be described as "safe", this survey showed that 85.9% of incidents involving bottles did not result in injury requiring medical attention. It may also be of interest that Professor Jonathan Shepherd, a leading advocate of toughened glasses, has never called for bottles to be banned.
BEDA has found it impossible to obtain meaningful statistics from individual hospitals. Discussions with both police and council officers have revealed that this is a common problem. Most busy accident and emergency departments are unable to record the type of information needed to distinguish between different types of glassing injuries. In addition, the area covered by each hospital is often very large and may include several large towns and their surrounds. Most hospitals do not distinguish between accidental and non-accidental injury. In this connection it is relevant to note that in one particular survey 72 reports of injuries from glass or bottles were noted over a period of 2 years. Only 9 of those were said to have been deliberate and only 4 of those involved bottles.
BEDA has therefore come to the conclusion that there is no evidence currently available which demonstrates that bottles cause a significant problem in licensed premises generally, still less in late night venues specifically.
11. Conclusion
BEDA can find no evidence that justifies a ban on consumers drinking from bottles in licensed premises generally.
BEDA has found no evidence to support a ban that would solely affect premises holding section 77 certificates.
BEDA opposes a blanket bottle ban affecting the good and the bad alike, but believes that local authorities should impose conditions upon specific venues where serious problems are proved to have occurred.
BEDA believes local authorities should support those who manage their venues well, whilst taking action against those who do not.

So there you have it........no support for a bottle ban from the industry.

Obviously the prevention of human disfigurement doesn't rank very highly in some circles. Evil or Very Mad

Maybe a writ under the H&S at work might cause a stir? although they would probably get away with the " as far as is reasonably practical" clause.

Take care all.

Mike.